Kumandalı Uçurtma İpi

Uçurtma yapımında kullanılabilecek her türlü malzeme hakkında bilgi. Malzeme bulunacak yerler.
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Spectre
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Kumandalı Uçurtma İpi

Post by Spectre »

Arkadaşlar GWTW de aşşağıdaki röpörtajı buldum. Shanti Speed Line, tek ve kumandalı uçurtmalar için ip üreten bir firma. Sanırım en detaylı bilgi bu röpörtajda var.

GWTW : Today we find that most sport kites lines are either listed as "Dyneema" or "Spectra", aren't they really the same thing?

Shanti Speed Line: Dyneema and Spectra are not the same. Dyneema stretches 5%. Spectra 3.9%. Both are made from polyethylene but Dyneema fibers are about one third the size of Spectra fibers. For example, a 90 lb/test Dyneema line may have over 1500 filaments compared to a 90 lb/test Spectra line which has less than 500. When flying, the friction of wrapped lines breaks the smaller Dyneema fibers causing the line to become fuzzy and wear out twice as fast. Made in Europe and Asia, Dyneema is cheaper, so companies like to use it and claim it’s the same.

GWTW : Some companies coat their line. Does this make the line better?

Shanti: When we invented Spectra kite line in 1985, the rest of the industry was using Kevlar. Kevlar was a great line but it had to be waxed and you lost control with multiple wraps. On the other hand, Spectra line was inherently slippery and didn't’t require a coating. Today, companies coat Spectra because they’re making fishing line, not kite line. Coatings make Spectra line stiffer and less slippery. That’s good for fishermen and bad for kiteflyers.

GWTW : Some Spectra line is colored. Why is that?

Shanti : Again, companies that color Spectra are making line for the fish market and then trying to sell the idea back to kiteflyers. Fishermen want their fishing line to be invisible to fish so they like blue or green line. The problem is that you can’t dye Spectra, so color is added with a coating which adds friction. The irony is that kiteflyers (and fish) want Spectra line to be visible. For kiteflyers…white is good, blue is silly.

GWTW : What's the deal with Spectra "1000" and "2000"?

Shanti : Mostly it’s a marketing game. If you examine a braided line you’ll notice that there’s usually 8, 12, or 16 bundles of fibers in the construction. Honeywell Corporation makes these bundles in limited sizes or “deniers.” Spectra kite lines vary greatly based on how a company constructs a line from different deniers. However when companies started braiding fishing line there were no denier sizes small enough to construct a 30 lb./test fishing line, so Honeywell started making smaller deniers of Spectra “1000” fiber and calling it Spectra “2000.” The specifications of strength, weight, stretch and etc. are the same. You can check Honeywell’s web site and see for yourself. In short, Spectra, “2000” is great for making fishing lines less than 50 lb/test but is lousy for kite lines larger than 50 lb/test.

GWTW : The rumor in kiteland is that there will be a shortage of Spectra line as most of the Spectra fiber is going to the military. Is that true?

Shanti : Yes, that’s true. Spectra is used for making bullet-proof vests, helmets, and all sorts of high-tech military equipment. The Department of Defense gets first dibs on whatever Spectra they want. At Shanti we have a special relationship with Honeywell because we’ve been working with them since Spectra was an experimental fiber, so we can still get Spectra fiber for our braiding. That’s not true for other companies. That’s another reason why they’re switching to Dyneema and claiming it’s the same. It’s not.

GWTW : There is a great debate raging over the value of sleeving line. What's your view?

Shanti : I thought we settled this question 20 years ago. All high-modulus polyethylene lines such as Spectra and Dyneema have poor knot-strength of about 40%. Sleeving raises the knot-strength to about 65%. For example, a 150 lb/test line will break at about 60 lbs. on a raw knot or at 98 lbs. on a sleeved knot. That’s a big difference. If you sleeve your lines you can fly your kite on a lighter, thinner line and significantly reduce wind-drag.

GWTW : Isn't the line that comes prepackaged with stunt kite the best line for that kite?

Shanti : When kite manufacturers sell to the mass-market, they have to provide line because clerks in Costco and REI don’t know anything about kite line. Since most stunt kites are now made in China for the mass-market, that means they are generally packaged with what’s available and what’s cheapest. That’s usually Dyneema or some other blend of fibers. Unfortunately, a lot of this line is incorrectly labeled “Spectra” because it benefits the importers. Beginners don’t know the difference, but real kiteflyers know line performance dramatically affects kite performance.

GWTW : When you get right down to it, aren't most of the dual line sets out there really pretty much the same?

Shanti : How do I answer that? Last night, I watched an interview of Jesse James on 60 Minutes and they asked him if his bikes were different from Harley’s…he sat there dumbfounded and said something like, “Is this a joke?” That’s how I feel. Granted, we’re talking kite line, not motorcycles, but the flyers I know care about their equipment just as much as bikers do. Most of our competitors mechanically measure and wind their dual sets to save money. It’s fast. It’s cheap, but the fact is, there is no automated way to tie a good line set. I’ve been building machines to wind spools for over 30 years and I’m telling you the best line sets are done by hand – strung out, pre-stretched, precisely marked, sleeved, double-knotted and hand-tied in a figure-eight. That’s what we do at Shanti. We make our line sets so a flyer can walk directly onto a competition field and fly, no worries, no hassles. That’s important to us. We don’t care about the mass-market or the fish market or the cheap market. At Shanti, we make kite line for the kiteflyer. Period.

Our thanks to Daniel Prentice at Shanti for taking the time to share his views with us.

Shanti is located right here in Northern California. We have developed a very good relationship with them. They are very responsive to the needs of our customers. They are more than willing to make line sets to any specification. Need a set of competition lines for your 4-man team in 100, 105, 110 and 115 ft. lengths? We can do that. Do you really prefer to fly on 38 foot 90 lb line? We can do that too.
We stock what we feel to be 'standard' length line sets, but Shanti is willing to make sets to fit your needs. Call or email us if you need a custom set of lines.
İyi Rüzgarlar,
Ferruh Bayşu
http://www.ucurtma.org

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Melih
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Post by Melih »

Gerçekten muhteşem bir röportajmış. Yanlız dayanıklılık konusundaki farkı anlayamadım, askeri dökümanlarda kevlardan %40 sağlamdır deniliyor hep. Buarada biri diğerindne %33 sağlam deniyor, bu durumda dyneema kevlardan nerede ise 2 kat sağlam olması lazım, bence bir abartma var. moleküler yapının aynı olduğunu kabul edersek hesaplarda veya malzeme kalitesinde bir hata olsa gerek.

Röportajın geri kalanı kesinlikle çok eğitici oldu benim açımdan,

teşekkürler.
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etobur
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Post by etobur »

Ben de birkac bir sey ekleyeyim istedim. Iplerin uzerindeki kaplamanin ve kullanilan fiberlerin otesinde sanirim iplerin sarim sekillerinin de etkisi var performansta. Bazi iplere yakindan baktiginizda (genelde spectra 2000 fiberleriyle yapilmis olanlar), yassi oldugunu gorursunuz. Bazilari ise daha yuvarlaklar. Yine bazilarinin ust yuzeyleri sarimdan dolayi engebeli iken digerlerininki daha duz. Butun bunlar da iplerin kayganligini etkiliyor. Eger 4-5 kisilik bir ucurtma takimi kuruyorsaniz, ipler mutlaka cok karisacak birbirine. Ve karisik durumda ters yonlere gidip kayda deger yuk bindireceksiniz iplere. Bu durumda kayganlik cok onemli. Ama burda dyneema/spectra diye bir ayrim yapamiyorum. Cunku mesela benim alpha ile gelen dyneema iplerim, E2 ile gelen sozde spectra iplerden daha kayganmis gibi geliyor. Ama en son kitebuilder'dan aldigim spectra 2000 ipler bunlarin arasinda en ince ve en kaygan olani (uc ip de 150 lbs ipler). Anladigim kadariyla adi ne olursa olsun, hem sarim, hem de fiberlerin kalitesi farkettiriyor. Bence bir ya da iki set yapip denenebilir. Eger begenmezseniz o ipleri kisisel ucuslarinizda kullanirsiniz. Hem bu sekilde takim icin yaptiginiz yeni set sadece takim ucuslarinda kullanilir, ve herkesinki ayni sekilde eskir. Bu da onemli birsey takim ucuslarinda. Bir de takim ucuslarinda ayni (sadece ayni cesit degil, ayni marka, ayni tip, ayni eskilikte) ipler kullanmak iyi bir fikir sanirim. Farkli ozelliklerdeki ipler, farkli surtunme katsayilarina sahip. Iki ip birbirine degdiginde, ozellikle takim ucuslari gibi bol surtunmeli bir durumda, surtunme katsayisi fazla olan ip, az olan ipi jilet gibi kesebiliyor.

Bu arada yukaridaki roportaj gayet bilgilendirici, fakat biraz dikkatli okumakta yarar var. GWTW ve Shanti arasinda kendilerinin de belirttigi gibi cografi komsuluk var. Ve GWTW devamli Shanti iplerinin reklamini yapar. Aslinda bir suru insan da cok iyi oldugunu soyluyor bu iplerin, ama yine de bu roportajin bir kismi bilgilendiri olsa bile, bir kismi da reklammis gibi geliyor bana.

Toros
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Spectre
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Post by Spectre »

yukardaki röpörtajda sağlamlıkla ilgili bir yüzde göremedim.

Dynnemanın sayfasında Aramid den 40% daha sağlam olduğu yazıyor.
İyi Rüzgarlar,
Ferruh Bayşu
http://www.ucurtma.org

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Melih
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Post by Melih »

dökümanı yanlış mı okudum veya anlamadım mı bilmiyorum ama benim anladığım 90 libre testi için birinden 1500 diğerindne 1000 lif kadar kullanıldığı. yani 90 librede biri 1000 diğeri 1500 densitede, densite değerleri sözkonusu olduğunda lif çaplarının aynı olduğunu(ip değil her bir lif) varsaymak gerekir. bu durumda birindne 1000 lif ötekinden 1500 lif aynı işi görür diyorsa, bu biri diğerindne 1/2 oranında sağlam demek olur.

ingilizcem harika sayılmaz, yanlış mı anlıyorum.
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Spectre
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Post by Spectre »

Sen Liflerin kalınlığının aynı olduğu varsayımından yola çıkıyorsun. Ama lifler aynı kalınlıkta olmayabilir.
İyi Rüzgarlar,
Ferruh Bayşu
http://www.ucurtma.org

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cimcoz
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Post by cimcoz »

Tekstilde uzun lif makbuldur. Yukarıda da diyor ki:
For example, a 90 lb/test Dyneema line may have over 1500 filaments compared to a 90 lb/test Spectra line which has less than 500.
Yani Dyneema küçük liflerden oluşuyor ve bu nedenle Dyneema'da 1500 adet lif varken, Spectra aynı işi 500'den az sayıda lifle görüyor. Dolayısıyla Dyneema'larda iplerin sürtünmesi kısa lifleri birbirinden daha kolay ayırıyor, ipler tüyleniyor ve ömürleri daha kısa oluyor. Konunun lif kalınlığıyla ilgisi yok.
Umarım açıklayıcı olmuştur.
Hüseyin Cimcoz
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Bir insanın bidiğini zannettiği şeyi öğrenmesi imkansızdır...
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etobur
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Post by etobur »

Both are made from polyethylene but Dyneema fibers are about one third the size of Spectra fibers.
Burda der ki dyneema fiber'leri spectra fiber'lerinin ucte biri..

Toros
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Melih
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Post by Melih »

hım çok daha iyi anladım şimdi durumu :)
yahu bu ip işi ne acaip çıktı böyle, eskiden bir misina, bir ekovat ipi biliyorduk mutluyduk, şimdi "lifler tüylenir","kevlardan %40" derken iş iyice karmaşıklaştı :)

şaka tabi.

Şu ucuz dyneema işe yarıyorsa valla, boyasını çözmek benden :)
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erol
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Post by erol »

Şu ip meselesine vakit ayırayımda iyice bir öğreneyim diyordum, başka birşey isteseymişim olacakmış :)

Teşekkürler :)
Erol Dinneden
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Spectre
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Post by Spectre »

Şöyle 3-4bin metre spectra/dyneema ip dileseydin daha iyi olacakmış. Hemde daha kolay.
İyi Rüzgarlar,
Ferruh Bayşu
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Melih
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Post by Melih »

arkadaşlar fotoğraf makinama tekrar kavuştum ve size 0.7 mm lik 23 milyonluk dyneema ipin resmini çektim, yeşili tam olarak böyle :)

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Altan
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Post by Altan »

Arkadaşlar, ihya ettiniz. Teşekkür ederiz. Bir de ip alabilirsem bu işi çözdüm diyeceğim. Yaşasın forum.
Altan Güvenni
Uçucu madde bağımlısı.
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Melih
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Post by Melih »

şu balıkcı ipini denedim, son derece iyi, hiç esnemiyor ama öngörmediğim bir sorunu var. İpi çevire çevire makaraya sararken insanın parmaklarını bayağı yeşile boyuyor :lol:
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Altan
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Post by Altan »

Boyayı çıkarabilirim demiştin. Deneyebildin mi?
Altan Güvenni
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